I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldnt be necessary. These days, many people whose are trained in psychology do not recognize the presence of evil. Part of the real men drink beer and bourbon are two favorites at church picnics. However reading your narrative (and others) has given me much to think about. I needed that sort of help. He took me home. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. The point of it is to not enable the bad behavior. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. Then as soon as they express repentance (they dont have to show it, they just have to say the word), theyre restored, and everyone else is supposed to show understanding and forgiveness. 1. Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value. What is that about? and fails to get the help he needs . Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. He passed out at the wheel. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. That is Gods department. Sometimes it takes the strength of one brave soul to shine the spotlight on evil and help save victims. I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. WOW!!! No one has said we shouldnt try. Murder is a crime. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. Or would you see the situation differently? I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). . After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. The body has many parts. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. I have been meaning to write about it anyway. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. It seems to me that secure and confident men (I dont like the term real men/women) should do as they wish/deem wise themselves, instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? Then I agree with both of you. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. Dr. R.C. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. for sharing your further insights about R.C. Ive been a ligonier for years . I made a few personal connections with ppl. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. But! Or for his wife? (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!). Velour wrote: No, I definitely do support them. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Pride goeth before a fall, and what a fall RC Sproul Jr. is having. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? I posted that list to you multiple times. I say I because it was just I. Bang head on table. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Categories: Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers | Altamonte Springs, Florida | Sanford, Florida | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania | Biblical Scholars | Teachers | Authors | Broadcasters | Editors | Notables, WIKITREE HOME | ABOUT | G2G FORUM | HELP | SEARCH. Lisa claims that RC Jr Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Lisa probably has little if any practical experience with alkies. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. Im wondering if a 2018 resolution will be about depravity or the elect???? if this current bout of drinking heavily was a continuance of grieving, he could use: The down side of too much drink is never shown. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse.. After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. Sigh. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. But I also fully agree with you. Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. Im not contesting that. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Velour, that person you know may believe that we banned her from A Cry For Justice. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. I think its the same person. Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. Unfortunately, even preachers succumb to the flesh by straying from being led by the Spirit where flesh rules over Spirit. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. i wish this werent so. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. Tax evasion is a crime. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! your anger is showing, yes. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. That is odd. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. I feel so sorry for those kids all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. So I was only saying what the Bible says. We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled, or for that matter their families. How does it help children to have an alcoholic parent put out of a church and not gotten into treatment for alcoholics? . For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. With regard to RC2, along with his alcoholism, and the alleged wife spanking which I posted about several years ago, there are numerous reports of spiritual abuse, failure to submit to authority, church discipline, etc. had to drop out of high school athletics in order to help his family . He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Q. It probably depends on the individual. That is horrific. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. or a swindler [scams, cons] It is Barbaras quote to H.U.G. Mine was a quiet conversion-I thought a lot about what I was hearing and reading, and through Gods kindness to me and the prompting of the Spirit, came to faith. I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. So I was only saying what the Bible says. 2. Its rude. Im just looking at his outward responses to not only his alcoholism, but his Ashley Madison scandal, and dont see it as a possibility for him right now. Thankfully, the truth of Scripture (all have sinned) helped me to realize that there is only even ground at the foot of the Cross. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Please stop advocating for his children? My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Why not? Velour wrote: Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. 2. I do not support enabling R.C. Its non stop catering to their lifestyle. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? No one knows. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. I stay and take the good with the bad. so pushing anger down is exhausting and depressing and being able to BE angry openly is a step in the right direction, My husband likes to read Peanuts and is always amused when he can announce that Im having a crab-in a la Lucy Van Pelt. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Vastly different things. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. Sputter. There are some people who can con their way into whatever position they want, even in a denomination that has a superstructure. 30 years ago, a minister in my then-denomination, one with a national/regional/local superstructure, had an affair with a counslee, and embezzled some money. 1. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Please. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. @ Velour: I also know plenty of men and women who are clean and sober and have had transformed lives. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, Hes ordered his parishioners to shun entire families and hes destroyed the faith of many people as a result of his vindictiveness, including small children. You know how to contact her. You stated you have been a ligonier for years, so I assume that means you agree with Sproul when he stated a few years ago that Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. I get that we all sinbut this is different. I am sorry to hear this. They have absolutely NO idea how phony it sounds to someone outside the Amen Chorus. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. If nothing else get a dose of reality. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. and just as simply, they dont drive afterward someone who only drank soft things is the designated driver. Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? Generally will not drink around them. These accounts can be found in many places on the internet. Velour wrote: Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. His wet brain led to do something stupid and put him in jail for a year, including 90 days in San Quentin for evaluation. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Sorry I cant help you, friend. I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. This is not all that safe sometimes. An 501(c)3 pastoral position of public trust has been verified? When the churchs reformed pastors have a worst track record than those they wish to save, it is way past time to reform their pulpits, ya think? Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). Not astounding to me. I advocate throwing him out because hes a wolf in sheeps clothing and we should be far more concerned about protecting sheep from wolves than we are for getting wolves sober. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheeps clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. But her children have been wounded and scarred. 5, it is the opportunity Ive been looking for, as pastors dont really teach and preach about this much maybe that is part of the problem. Mr. F- if you dont agree with RC Sprouls theology that is your business and Im not interested . 511 0 obj <> endobj 533 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<9723A9CD413C4B2C92544032644E85B0>]/Index[511 35]/Info 510 0 R/Length 100/Prev 987638/Root 512 0 R/Size 546/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida My mother said He couldnt help it. Yes, I remember being part of a group meeting where a social worker talked to a crowd of us about how to deal with an alcoholic in our group. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. A highway patrolman searching for the drunk driver who had been reported by someone witnessed the crash. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. Velour, you would be doing a kindness to yourself and everyone else by stepping back and taking time to pray and breathe. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? So behind the times. Its not helpful, I know. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. On May 30, 2017 RC Sproul Jr appeared before Judge Frances C. Gull in Allen County Indiana Drug Court to determine his eligibility for the Drug Court Treatment Program. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. (The passage says these are found in the world, yes and moreover, in the church we are all sinners. You have taken this quote out of context . I am not the least bit surprised by this as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Much as I hate to say it. I've been listening to true crime lately and there is SO much 'this person probably murdered their wife but they plead down so they only got a year' and 'this person wasn't charged for rape about 5 times for lack of evidence and then oops, they turned out to be a serial killer and none of that was on file' stuff. Dr. R.C. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. Yes it is. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. . Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? And yes, God can do anything he wants. This is the case with RC2. It sounds so evil. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when Iwas young. Purge the evil person from among you.. She can correct me if I did. There are many new ones and perhaps they are better at helping people. Ugh. John Marshall Sproul, M.D., of Mercer Island, died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. Help train Christians to boldly share the good news of Jesus Christ in a way that clearly communicates to this secular age. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. I was very clear that R.C. He is survived by his wife of 57 years, Vesta; their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul; 11 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. Family helping an alcoholic usually does not help. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.<<. Im not sure if Im thinking of the same comment, but I remember reading a comment that was confirming that this was the first DUI in a long history of drinking and driving (a history that goes way back, before the deaths of his wife and daughter, which means hes been doing this for years). I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. There are so many of us, Lisa. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, and thats sort of in the back of my mind now when I think about things like alcohol and other distracting and numbing tools. Answer to God. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. As the Apostle Paul instructs us, these instructions are not grievous; they provide strength, nourishment to the establishment of the believer within the body of Christ. I actually completely agree that there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? Sproul Sr is his sons enabler. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? How did his parents handle their sons defrocking in 2006? 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